Thursday, April 2, 2009

Torah and Temple

Could the beauty and splendor of a fancy church ever actually distract people from hearing God and his Spirit? There's a question for you.

And since we here at the unchurch are all about stealing content information sharing, here is a great piece from Keren Hannah Pryor:

Moses's brother, Aaron, was appointed by God as the High Priest (Kohen Gadol). Aaron and his sons are to be instituted and anointed to serve as kohanim (priests) before God in the Mishkan, the Holy Tabernacle of His Presence. Moses is irrefutably the esteemed leader of the people as well as God’s prophet and teacher of Torah – God’s instruction and guidance. Now, in the office of High Priest, Aaron is awarded the place of intermediary between God and His people in the procedures of worship and service to God in the Mishkan.

Torah and Temple
Some Jewish commentaries suggest that Aaron’s appointment caused Moses concern. Not a concern stemming from sibling rivalry and jealousy, but a fear that the ministries of Torah (teaching and studying God’s Word) and the Temple (worship and service to God) would be separated. If they were split apart the people might lose sight of the importance of their essential unity and connection. The beauty and splendor of the priestly garments, the glowing interior of the Holy Place, also the exterior beauty of the Beit HaMikdash (the Temple, literally the Holy House), and the dramatic activities of sacrifice and prayer – all these might distract the people from hearing the voice of God. In other words, the glory of the Temple might obscure the truth of the Torah.

History records that by the Second Temple period, when the Temple was a focal point of Yeshua’s life and teaching, this is exactly what had happened. The chief priests, who comprised the leadership, were corrupted by the power of their position and their collusion with Rome. The external was what mattered, and their hearts were far from God. Then the Torah Incarnate walked into their midst. The light of the eternal Word broke into their religious darkness. To some it brought repentance and life but to others, when the status quo of their self-appointed kingdom was suddenly threatened, it brought confusion and rage.

In the life, death and resurrection of Yeshua we see all the separated, dissonant parts of the Torah and Temple drawn together in a glorious, harmonious whole. Mercy and majesty, humility and glory, service and truth merge together in Him. The Messiah, foreseen by Abraham, Moses, King David, and the prophets, perfectly unites the physical and spiritual worlds, the human and the Divine.

A humble prophet like Moses, Yeshua speaks and lives the Torah of God, but He also is the exalted High Priest who bears His own blood of sacrifice to the Mercy Seat of God’s Presence in the Holy of Holies. In so doing He gains Atonement for sin once and for all. This same High Priest is now seated at the place of power at the right hand of God constantly interceding on our behalf (Hebrews 7:25-26; 8:1).

33 comments:

ElderChild said...

And The Only True G-D said ""Let There Be Light" and there was Light".......

Such Light was and is The Messiah, He who was "The Beginning of The Creation of The Only True GOD, Father(Creator) of ALL.......

The Light, "the glory The Messiah had with Our Father before the world began".......

The Messiah, "The Light which enlightens every man born into the world".......

As for The NEW Covenant.

Jer 31:31-37 "Behold, the days come, says YHWH, that I will make a NEW COVENANT with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: NOT ACCORDING TO THE COVENANT THAT I MADE WITH THEIR FATHERS IN THE TIME THAT I TOOK THEM BY THE HAND TO BRING THEM OUT OF THE LAND OF EGYPT FOR THEY BROKE THAT COVENANT, although I was an husband unto them, says YHWH: (Thankfully no longer natural "fathers" but YHWH, "Our Father" in "the NEWness of The Spirit not the letter")

But this shall be the NEW covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, says YHWH, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts(not in stone, but in their heart consciousness); and I will be their Elohim, and they shall be MY people. ("Come Out of her, MY people"! Come out of this world and it's systems of religion)

And every man shall no longer teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, "Know YHWH", for they shall all know ME, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, says YHWH: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

Thus says YHWH, which gives the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divides the sea when the waves thereof roar; YHWH of hosts is HIS name:

If those ordinances depart from before ME, says YHWH, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before ME for ever.

Thus says YHWH; If Heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, says YHWH."

In The NEW Covenant, "he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, whose circumcision is that of the flesh, he is a Jew who is one inwardly, whose circumcision is of the heart" as he immersed in, of, by and through The Holy, Set Apart Spirit that is of The Only True GOD, Father(Creator) of ALL.......

And The NEW Spiritual Israel?

"A Holy nation".......

"A nation of kings and priests" indeed and Truth, and the Spiritual Jews are "strangers and pilgrims on the earth" whose "citizenship(Life) is in Heaven". They are not of this wicked, evil world and it's systems of religion because they have taken heed unto The Call of The Only True GOD, Father(Creator) of ALL to "Come out of her, MY people".......

And the NEW Spiritual Jew is exhorted to "set their affections on things above, Heavenly things" and not be of those "whose god is their bellies, and whose glory is in their shame, because they mind earthly things"....... Sadly, there are multitudes who profess a belief in The Messiah with their mouth only for they "love this world and it's things"....... Such will hear those woe filled words, "Depart from Me all you workers of iniquity".......

"A Holy nation" of "kings and priests", all of whom are thankful that, that which was "decaying and waxing old" DID "vanish away" with the destruction of the natural, earthly kingdom centered in jerusalem.

"THY Kingdom" HAS "Come" indeed and Truth.......

No longer old, natural, earthly and temporal, The NEW is Spiritual, Heavenly and Eternal.......

All Thanks, Praise and Glory Be Unto The Only True GOD, Father(Creator)of ALL.......

Joe B said...

Hey, ElderChild. I'd love to hear you continue your thoughts. I love the collection of scriptures and scriptural thoughts. I'd like to hear you sum them up. Also, the thoughts you laid out are much larger in scope than what Scott posted. I'd like to hear you comment directly on his post, too. Thanks for pausing from your Nomadic Life long enough to comment!

ElderChild said...

i had made a direct comment to the post. Simply, once "THY Kingdom" HAD "Come" that which waxed old vanished away in deed and Truth.......

There is no common union old and NEW.......

Once again.

In The NEW Covenant, "he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, whose circumcision is that of the flesh, he is a Jew who is one inwardly, whose circumcision is of the heart" as he immersed in, of, by and through The Holy, Set Apart Spirit that is of The Only True GOD, Father(Creator) of ALL.......

And The NEW Spiritual Israel?

"A Holy nation".......

"A nation of kings and priests" indeed and Truth, and the Spiritual Jews are "strangers and pilgrims on the earth" whose "citizenship(Life) is in Heaven". They are not of this wicked, evil world and it's systems of religion because they have taken heed unto The Call of The Only True GOD, Father(Creator) of ALL to "Come out of her, MY people".......

And the NEW Spiritual Jew is exhorted to "set their affections on things above, Heavenly things" and not be of those "whose god is their bellies, and whose glory is in their shame, because they mind earthly things"....... Sadly, there are multitudes who profess a belief in The Messiah with their mouth only for they "love this world and it's things"....... Such will hear those woe filled words, "Depart from Me all you workers of iniquity".......

"A Holy nation" of "kings and priests", all of whom are thankful that, that which was "decaying and waxing old" DID "vanish away" with the destruction of the natural, earthly kingdom centered in jerusalem.

"THY Kingdom" HAS "Come" indeed and Truth.......

No longer old, natural, earthly and temporal, The NEW is Spiritual, Heavenly and Eternal.......

All Thanks, Praise and Glory Be Unto The Only True GOD, Father(Creator)of ALL.......

Apart from Spiritual discernment, not theo'ry'logy, the words in what catholicism and christianity call their "bible" remain but "colored marks written on a dead tree".

And so it is that all systems of religion are anti-messiah.......

Yet there is hope that there would be those who take heed unto The Call of The Only True GOD, Father(Creator) of ALL to "Come out of her, MY people" for they will "see" The Light that is The Messiah and have naught to do with this wicked, evil world and it's systems of religion.

"Pure And Undefiled Religion"

"Pure religion and undefiled before GOD The Father is this, to visit the fatherless(those children who know not The Father) and widows(those who have not "experienced The Messiah and The Power that raised Him from among the dead) in their affliction and to keep oneself uncontaminated by the world." (James 1:27)

Simply, all other religion is impure and defiled!

Faith will not create a system of religion.......

Hope is there would be those who take heed unto The Call of The Only True GOD to "Come Out of her, MY people"!

For they will "Come Out" of this wicked world(babylon) and it's systems of religion, into "the glorious Liberty of The Children of The Only True GOD".

They will no longer be of those who are destroying the earth(land, air, water, vegetation, creatures)" and perverting that which is Spirit(Light, Truth, Life, Love, Peace, Hope, Faith, Mercy, Grace, Miracles, etc.).

Peace, in spite of the dis-ease(religion) that is of this world, for "the WHOLE world is under the control of the evil one" (1John5:19) indeed and Truth.......

Joe B said...

You get the prize for the most interesting commenter on the unChurch Blog in recent days.

For the other readers, notice how ElderChild approaches the scripture (particularly in contrast to our itinerant calvinists.) First notice that he speaks directly from the bible. Second, notice that he takes a broad, sweeping view of the scriptural story. He places the New Testament writings squarely before the Old, as he also puts all the things of the New ahead of the Old. Mostly he puts Jesus smack in the center of it: Jesus is seen as THE tipping point in history, and THE only authority in the earth. Much of what he quotes from the bible is from the book of Hebrews, which takes the same broad sweeping view.

The New is what everything else on earth was leading up to. "These things" as it says in Colossians 2 "were a shadow of what was to come. The reality, however, is in Jesus."

I am reminded what Paul wrote to the Corinthians: "...then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power." 1Co 15:24

Those who believe that the church of the Living God is essentially an authority structure that mediates between God and Man, be warned. Jesus has a different plan.

Thanks, ElderChild!

ElderChild said...

"The plan" is of The Only True GOD, Father(Creator) of ALL.......

The Messiah, as Isaiah testified was "a servant of The Only True GOD".......

The Messiah was sent by The Only True GOD, Father(Creator) of ALL to accomplish HIS plan of salvation.......

As The Messiah testified, "I can do nothing of mine own self", "the words I speak are not My words they are The Words of The Father, HE WHO sent Me".......

And as The Messiah desired above all else, so also will His Brethren desire above all else:

"Father, not My will, But THY Will Be Done".......

And so it is that All Thanks, Praise and Glory Needs Be Given Unto The Only True GOD, Father (Creator)of ALL.......

Joe B said...

More Joe B commentary on ElderChild's way of reading, interpreting, undersatnding scripture (the word for that is "hermeneutic"). I think it's worth noting.

Read his last comment and observe that his hermeneutic is personal ( not legal or theoretical or institutional) from top to bottom. The Father-Creator is somebody. The Son-Messiah is somebody. The Reborn-Redeemed-Follower is somebody. The Messiah's call to discipleship is personal, and the obedience of the disciple is personal. Then the outcome is cosmic.

He does not abstract-ify or conceptualize these issues until it doesn't matter whether they or real or not. They are all as concrete and real as the somebodies involved. (Some theologs confuse abstraction with "spirituality", but it is not spirituality. Spirit is what reality is made of. Abstraction is reducing reality to a mere diagram of reality.)

No angels dancing on the head of a pin, here. No paper perichoresis of the trinity.

I do not know ElderChild, but I think there is something very valuable in learning how he is relating life, truth, and scripture.

I have a feeling that Larry and Big D would absolutely hate his comments (but I'm not going to throw the red meat their way.)

ElderChild said...

It is difficult for me to accept that which resembles a positive comment from anyone.

Makes me wonder if i erred in what i had i posted, for i have received of the grace given that allows me to deal with rejection and ridicule, yet positive responses are few and far between, so they take me out of my comfort zone which has been established in the rejection and ridicule i have grown accustomed too.

Father Help! and HE does.......

As for life, truth, and scripture?

Natural temporal life is a gift, The Life is received when one is immersed in, of, by and thru The Holy, Set Apart, Spirit of The Only True GOD, Father(Creator) of ALL.

Yet, for one to receive of The Life, they must also have received "the love of The Truth so that they might be saved"......

And yes, one can receive "the love of The Truth" apart from the scriptures.

Scriptures bear witness to The Life, yet to merely read those "colored marks written on a dead tree", apart from receiving "the love of The Truth", is one prime reason why so many systems of religions have been created, all of which emanate from mankind's "imag"ination.

And simply, religion is anti-messiah.......

Truth is "The New Testament" "canon" was established by pagan catholicism more than 300 years after that which "waxed old" DID "vanish away" indeed and Truth with the destruction of the earthly, natural kingdom centered in jerusalem.

"THY Kingdom" HAD "Come" and IS.......

And it is well to remember that all "biblical" translations have been perverted in accordance with the religious dogma of the translators.......

Yet there is hope!

For Miracles do happen!

Hope is there would be those who experience The Miracle that is receiving "the love of The Truth" for they will take heed unto The Call of The Only True GOD to "Come Out of her, MY people".

They will "Come Out" of this wicked world and it's systems of religion and "set their affections on things above, Heavenly things".......

Thankfully, soon and very soon, Home! Home at last.......

Peace, in spite of the dis-ease(no-peace) that is of this wicked world.......

Joe B said...

Priests are in temples, Kings are in palaces. But the Prophet's place is suffering outside the gate, knee deep in rocks.

I can tell where people will disagree with you, but you don't sound offensive to me.

But then, I am not much invested in the Religious-Industrial Complex.

Come to think of it, neither was Jesus.

ElderChild said...

Suffering is a good thing, and apart from Grace no man could withstand the pain of forsaking all, yes even life itself.

Yet when one forsakes their own life, it is then The Life is clearly manifest as one finally see's "oh, wretched man that "I" am".

Then the upward journey begins and from the hearts of those, who now see how "poor and needy" they truly are, issues forth The Victory Cry,

Father Help! and HE does.......

As for religion?

"Pure religion and undefiled before The Only True GOD, The Father(Creator) of ALL is this, to visit the fatherless(those children who know not Their Father[Creator]) and widows(those who have not "experienced The Messiah and The Power that raised Him from among the dead) in their affliction and to keep oneself uncontaminated by the world." (James 1:27)

Simply, all other religion is impure and defiled!

Faith will not create a system of religion.......

Hope is there would be those who take heed unto The Call of The Only True GOD to "Come Out of her, MY people"!

For they will "Come Out" of this wicked world(babylon) and it's systems of religion, into "the glorious Liberty of The Children of The Only True GOD".

They will no longer be of those who are destroying the earth(land, air, water, vegetation, creatures)" and perverting that which is Spirit(Light, Truth, Life, Love, Peace, Hope, Faith, Mercy, Grace, Miracles, etc.).

Peace, in spite of the dis-ease(religion) that is of this world, for "the WHOLE world is under the control of the evil one" (1John5:19) indeed and Truth.......

Truth is never ending.......

Larry Gwaltney said...

"For the other readers, notice how ElderChild approaches the scripture (particularly in contrast to our itinerant calvinists.) First notice that he speaks directly from the bible. "

Joe, NOBODY speaks "directly from the Bible." He is interpreting it, as you are interpreting it, as I am interpreting it.

The difference is that "itinerant Calvinists" recognize and understand this, and you guys, do not.

Joe B said...

Yeah, but you know what I mean. He phrases everything out of bible verses. You're right, the verses he selects and the way he arranges them is interpretive, just loike anybody else.

The "itinerant calvinists" like you and most of my blogger heroes like Keller and McKnight and MacDonald phrase your statements much more from creeds, confessions, and theological orthodoxies.

It's different, that's all.

And the reason i said i thought you'd hate the things he said is because i figured you'd hate the things that he said. Both fervent, passionate believers I'd like to hang out with, but at opposite ends of some continuum. He is radically anti-institutional, and you are more radically institutional than anyone else I've had the pleasure of knowing.

So, what do you think about Scott's article hijacked from K.H. Pryor? Do you think the trappings of god-fashioned religion could ever obscure the slendor of the One True and Living God?

Larry Gwaltney said...

Well yes, I DO hate what ElderChild seems to be saying. He's approaching interpretation with a specific agenda, whereas our Systematic Theology is to be shaped over time by thousands of people over thousands of years, refined by Biblical Theology, all under the auspices of the Church's teaching magisterium.

His use of James 1:27, for instance, makes the mistake of taking it as an exhaustive statement of what "pure religion" consists. But no one verse in the Bible can make an exhaustive statement about anything, even "Jesus as Lord" has to be qualified in some way.

I'm pretty sure ElderChild wouldn't be willing to sit at anyone's feet and listen. It's just "Me and My Bible" and that's all he needs.

Joe B said...

I see your point on James 1:27, even if I might have phrased it differently.

E-Child's logic at this point is overextended: One cannot say that if an apple is not spoiled, therefore anything that is not an apple must necessarily be spoiled.

If we stop there, however, all we've done is impeach a guy's logic. We have not done away with the point James is making here, and throughout. James is adamant that true Christian faith is not a matter of verbal orthodoxy, but of actual obedience. Or as St Paul phrased it, faith working in love.

Within the same generation as Jesus life and resurrection, James already decries the sin of God's people, in the manner of a classic prophet. And his whole epistle still stands as a withering indictment of the Christian religion as it is now embodied in its institutions.

Words, words, words. Not all of them meant for edifying. And I'm as guilty as any. May I and all my beloved bretheren be quick to hear, and slow to type, and slow to anger. God winnow away our chaff, and make us fruitful by your ingrafted word.

ElderChild said...

"itinerant Calvinists" speak as "itinerant Calvinists".......

And "calvin" was as impure as one could be ;-(

What of those who hold to none other than the only "pure and undefiled religion"?

"Pure religion and undefiled before GOD The Father is this, to visit the fatherless(those children who know not The Father[Creator]) and widows(those who have not "experienced The Messiah and The Power that raised Him from among the dead) in their affliction and to keep oneself uncontaminated by the world." (James 1:27)

Simply, all other religion is impure and defiled!

Faith will not create a system of religion.......

Hope is there would be those who take heed unto The Call of The Only True GOD to "Come Out of her, MY people"!

For they will "Come Out" of this wicked world(babylon) and it's systems of religion, into "the glorious Liberty of The Children of The Only True GOD".

They will no longer be of those who are destroying the earth(land, air, water, vegetation, creatures)" and perverting that which is Spirit(Light, Truth, Life, Love, Peace, Hope, Faith, Mercy, Grace, Miracles, etc.).

Peace, in spite of the dis-ease(religion) that is of this world, for "the WHOLE world is under the control of the evil one" (1John5:19) indeed and Truth.......

Truth is never ending.......
thedestructionoftheearth.wordpress.com

Larry Gwalteny said...

"And "calvin" was as impure as one could be ;-("

You have no idea what you are saying. And why do I get the feeling you've never read one word of the "Institutes?"

And again, claiming James 1:27 is the sum total of "pure religion" is absurd. There isn't one word there about Communion, for example. Are you saying the practice of the Eucharist is "impure" or "defiled?"

Just repeating a flawed interpretation of a verse is not an argument.

ElderChild said...

Once again, calvin was impure, and but the product of the heretical pagan theo'ry'logy that is catholicism.......

As for your natural bread like substance, wine or grape juice or whatever, tell us about your "communion(common union) with The Holy, Set Apart, Spirit.......

Simply,

The Messiah, is "The Light" of the old and The New Covenant, "The Light" which enlightens every man born into the world"....... ""Let There Be Light" and there was Light".......

LIGHT begot Light.......

And as for the 'Jew' of The NEW Covenant.

Jer 31:31-37 "Behold, the days come, says YHWH, that I will make a NEW COVENANT with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: NOT ACCORDING TO THE COVENANT THAT I MADE WITH THEIR FATHERS IN THE TIME THAT I TOOK THEM BY THE HAND TO BRING THEM OUT OF THE LAND OF EGYPT FOR THEY BROKE THAT COVENANT, although I was an husband unto them, says YHWH: (Thankfully no longer natural "fathers" but YHWH, "Our Father" in "the NEWness of The Spirit not the letter")

But this shall be the NEW covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, says YHWH, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts(not in stone, but in their heart consciousness); and I will be their Elohim, and they shall be MY people. ("Come Out of her, MY people"! Come out of this world and it's systems of religion)

And every man shall no longer teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, "Know YHWH", for they shall all know ME, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, says YHWH: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

Thus says YHWH, which gives the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divides the sea when the waves thereof roar; YHWH of hosts is HIS name:

If those ordinances depart from before ME, says YHWH, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before ME for ever.

Thus says YHWH; If Heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, says YHWH."

The NEW Covenant established The Truth that, "he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, whose circumcision is that of the flesh, he is a Jew who is one inwardly, whose circumcision is of the heart" as he was immersed in, of, by and through The Holy, Set Apart Spirit that is of The Only True G-D, Father(Creator) of ALL.......

And The NEW Spiritual Israel?

"A Holy nation".......

"A nation of kings and priests" indeed and Truth, and the Spiritual Jews are "strangers and pilgrims on the earth" whose "citizenship(Life) is in Heaven".

They are not of this wicked, evil world and it's systems of religion because they have taken heed unto The Call of The Only True G-D, Father(Creator) of ALL to "Come out of her, MY people".......

And the NEW Spiritual Jew is exhorted to "set their affections on things above, Heavenly things" and not be of those "whose god is their bellies, and whose glory is in their shame, because they mind earthly things".......

Sadly, there are multitudes who profess a belief in The Messiah with their mouth only for they "love this world and it's things".......

All such will hear those woe filled words, "Depart from Me all you workers of iniquity".......

Thankfully The Brethen of The Messiah have their citizenship(Life) in Heaven" for they are "A Holy nation" of "kings and priests", all of whom are thankful that, that which was "decaying and waxing old" DID "vanish away" with the destruction of the natural, earthly kingdom centered in jerusalem.

"THY Kingdom" DID "Come", and IS, indeed and Truth.......

No longer old, natural, earthly and temporal, The NEW is Spiritual, Heavenly and Eternal.......

And so it is that yesterday, today and if there be a tomorrow, that the chosen ones, the elect, the Jew of The New Covenant is Spiritual, Heavenly and Eternal.......

All Thanks, Praise and Glory Be Unto The Only True G-D, Father(Creator) of ALL.......

Larry Gwaltney said...

"Once again, calvin was impure, and but the product of the heretical pagan theo'ry'logy that is catholicism......."

This is a sad example of what happens when somebody tries to understand the Bible apart from a knowledge of what has gone on in the history of the church.

ElderChild, I know that you believe you are "pure" and "undefiled" because you simply spout Scripture at random, and I'm sure you think you have a more profound understanding than the rest of us poor saps who prefer to go with a hierarchical structure of church government, a systematic theology and confessional statements, etc., but you are making a very serious mistake in going it alone. As just one example:

"As for your natural bread like substance, wine or grape juice or whatever, tell us about your "communion(common union) with The Holy, Set Apart, Spirit......."

Why don't YOU tell ME if the practice of the Eucharist is "pure and undefiled" if it isn't mentioned in James 1:27? Do you partake in regular Communion with a body of believers? If you don't, then YOU are "impure" and "defiled" because you are deliberately being disobedient to the command of Jesus Christ.

And if you ARE partaking in Communion, then that should prove to you that James 1:27 isn't an exhaustive statement of what true religion consists.

Joe B said...

It's hard to discuss this with E-Child because he doesn't communicate in a regular discourse of sentences and paragraphs.

Larry, you are right that James 1:27 is not intended as an exhaustive list of acceptable acts of devotion. But you're probably wrong when you frame EC's statement "all other religion is impure and defiled" to mean that HE believes it IS exhaustive. Despite the discrepant logic I isolated before, that conclusion is not warranted. His statement is consistent with a correct reading of James 1:27, it is is just the conclusions he draws from it that you disagree with.

Are we discussing the revelation of God in the holy scripture, or just trying to prove someone is dumb? And let us not confuse dumb with wrong anyway, for we all serve one God who "has chosen the foolish of this world to confound the wise."

Since his statement is equally consistent with a reasonable interpretation of the text, how about focusing on the central issue EC is howling about, the legitimacy of institutional religion?

You always have a lot to say about that. Shouldn't you be be arguing that apostolic succession (or some such) disproves his understanding of the holy spirit, or that you heirarchical guys essentially are all about widows and orphans, or that modern temple-equivalents are what Jesus commanded us to go and institute? Stuff like that?

Whether James 1:27 is exhaustive is not the central issue, and whether EC takes communion correctly is not the central issue. All that gets at is whether he's smart enough or Presbyterian enough to suit you.

He is neither. But what about Jesus and his teaching? We're supposed to be all about Him, not all against each other.

ElderChild said...

It is the pagan catholic/christian systems of religion and their "imag"ined 'jesus' who are impure and defiled because they were "imag"ined by the likes of calvin, luther, simons, and a multitude of other catholic pagan priests.......

And sadly, pagans liken unto you have declared James 1:27 to be of no consequence for you yet abide in that which "waxed old and vanished away" with the destruction of the natural, earthly, kingdom centered in jerusalem.

And you do not believe that Paul was taken up in the clouds to be with The Only True GOD, Father of ALL, and The Messiah at the time of the end of of the old and The Beginning of the NEW!

2 Tim 4:17-18 - "i was delivered out of the mouth of the lion. And the Lord will deliver me from every evil work and preserve me unto His Heavenly Kingdom: to Whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen."

You have no common union with The Spirit of Truth, and so it is that your bread is moldy and filled with worms and your wine is but the blood of all The Faithful who were martyred as they resisted the heresies of pagan catholicism and her harlot christian daughters.......

And those today, who are liken unto the murderers(calvin) and destroyers of old, still seek to kill those who have received "the love of The Truth", however rather than to kill the body, which of old brought others to The Faith, today they seek to kill The Spirit of Truth within The Faithful.

And the primary weapon used by "the father of lies" and his pagan catholic and christian systems of religion is the multitude of lies that are spewed forth by the thousands upon thousands of cathloic and christian pagan cults, each one shouting "lo, here is The Messiah".......

A multiple choice of "churches", and if one chooses anything but "none of the above", may The Only True GOD have Mercy on their soul.......

Thankfully The Miracle that is deliverance is Alive!

And The NEW Covenant IS!

The Messiah, is "The Light" of the old and The New Covenant,

"The Light" which enlightens every man born into the world"....... "

"Let There Be Light" and there was Light".......

LIGHT begot Light.......

And as for the 'Jew' of The NEW Covenant.

Jer 31:31-37 "Behold, the days come, says YHWH, that I will make a NEW COVENANT with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: NOT ACCORDING TO THE COVENANT THAT I MADE WITH THEIR FATHERS IN THE TIME THAT I TOOK THEM BY THE HAND TO BRING THEM OUT OF THE LAND OF EGYPT FOR THEY BROKE THAT COVENANT, although I was an husband unto them, says YHWH: (Thankfully no longer natural "fathers" but YHWH, "Our Father" in "the NEWness of The Spirit not the letter")

But this shall be the NEW covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, says YHWH, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts(not in stone, but in their heart consciousness); and I will be their Elohim, and they shall be MY people. ("Come Out of her, MY people"! Come out of this world and it's systems of religion)

And every man shall no longer teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, "Know YHWH", for they shall all know ME, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, says YHWH: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

Thus says YHWH, which gives the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divides the sea when the waves thereof roar; YHWH of hosts is HIS name:

If those ordinances depart from before ME, says YHWH, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before ME for ever.

Thus says YHWH; If Heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, says YHWH."

The NEW Covenant established The Truth that, "he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, whose circumcision is that of the flesh, he is a Jew who is one inwardly, whose circumcision is of the heart" as he was immersed in, of, by and through The Holy, Set Apart Spirit that is of The Only True G-D, Father(Creator) of ALL.......

And The NEW Spiritual Israel?

"A Holy nation".......

"A nation of kings and priests" indeed and Truth, and the Spiritual Jews are "strangers and pilgrims on the earth" whose "citizenship(Life) is in Heaven".

They are not of this wicked, evil world and it's systems of religion because they have taken heed unto The Call of The Only True G-D, Father(Creator) of ALL to "Come out of her, MY people".......

And the NEW Spiritual Jew is exhorted to "set their affections on things above, Heavenly things" and not be of those "whose god is their bellies, and whose glory is in their shame, because they mind earthly things".......

Sadly, there are multitudes who profess a belief in The Messiah with their mouth only for they "love this world and it's things".......

All such will hear those woe filled words, "Depart from Me all you workers of iniquity".......

Thankfully The Brethren of The Messiah have their citizenship(Life) in Heaven" for they are "A Holy nation" of "kings and priests", all of whom are thankful that, that which was "decaying and waxing old" DID "vanish away" with the destruction of the natural, earthly kingdom centered in jerusalem.

"THY Kingdom" DID "Come", and IS, indeed and Truth.......

No longer old, natural, earthly and temporal, The NEW is Spiritual, Heavenly and Eternal.......

And so it is that yesterday, today and if there be a tomorrow, that the chosen ones, the elect, the Jew of The New Covenant is Spiritual, Heavenly and Eternal.......

All Thanks, Praise and Glory Be Unto The Only True G-D, Father(Creator) of ALL.......

ElderChild said...

Joe stated,"But what about The Messiah and His teaching? We're supposed to be all about Him, not all against each other."

A man is not of the "we", concerning The Brethren of The Messiah, if he has not experienced The Miracle that is receiving "the love of The Truth".......

Not a love for naught but "colored marks written on a dead tree", but "the love of The Truth", for Truth is not ink inscribed on paper, Truth, as all that is Good, is Spirit.......

"And the natural man can not receive or comprehend the things that are of The Spirit, that is The Only True GOD, for they are foolishness unto him and the natural man can not know them, for the things that are of The Spirit, that is The Only True GOD, must be Spiritually discerned.......

ElderChild said...

Forgive me, for not including the following in the previous comment. i was to hasty with the post.

It is well to remember that some 2000 years past John testified, "Now there are many anti-Messiah's".......

And it was, and is yet promised, that "evil men and seducers would wax worse and worse, deceiving and being deceived"........

Yet there is hope!

For Truth IS Alive!

Eutychus said...

Wow, glad you cleared that up...I guess.

Are we to understand that religion itself, everything beyond the love-in-action God has poured into our hearts but the Holy Spirit, is not only of the mortal flesh, but also is anti-Jesus-and-Jesus'-Kingdom?

Joe B said...

I understand your way of reading this abou thte natural man and the thiings of the spirit. The matter of disagreement is largely "whom does this shoe fit."

I'd do a poor job of stating his position, but I think Larry G would say knowledge of the truth is received through the magisterium of the church and its apostolic successors, and the love of the truth is received by the elect before the beginning of time.

I tend to think it takes a thousand years and a running start to hammer the scripture into that shape. But I also find it a ghastly thing to suggest that anyone who approaches God in organized religion is actually antichrist.

You figure all those church people everywhere are damned? Or am I missing your point?

Larry Gwaltney said...

"Since his statement is equally consistent with a reasonable interpretation of the text, how about focusing on the central issue EC is howling about, the legitimacy of institutional religion?"

Do I really have to defend the legitimacy of institutional religion on this board? Has it come to that?

"Whether James 1:27 is exhaustive is not the central issue, "

It's the INTERPRETATION of a verse (such as James 1:27) that we are at loggerheads about. I could have just as easily critiqued his use of Jeremiah 31 (which refers to a future time and not the present day) as he seems to be saying that none of us need to be "taught" anymore.

Larry Gwaltney said...

"It is the pagan catholic/christian systems of religion and their "imag"ined 'jesus' who are impure and defiled because they were "imag"ined by the likes of calvin, luther, simons, and a multitude of other catholic pagan priests......."

I hate to break this to you, but Calvin was never a priest in the Catholic church. He was a lawyer (and I realize that some may think that is even worse).

Secondly, all Calvin did was write down what he thought the Bible said. Isn't that what YOU are doing? Why is his interpretation "imagined" while yours is supposedly "pure?"

"And sadly, pagans liken unto you have declared James 1:27 to be of no consequence for you yet abide in that which "waxed old and vanished away" with the destruction of the natural, earthly, kingdom centered in jerusalem."

So you conclude that because I say James 1:27 isn't an exhaustive statement that I'm therefore a pagan?

If you can't reason, think or read any better than that, why in the world do you think you're interpreting the Bible correctly (you aren't).

Larry Gwaltney said...

"I'd do a poor job of stating his position, but I think Larry G would say knowledge of the truth is received through the magisterium of the church and its apostolic successors, and the love of the truth is received by the elect before the beginning of time."

Actually, that's a very good way of saying it.

"I tend to think it takes a thousand years and a running start to hammer the scripture into that shape. But I also find it a ghastly thing to suggest that anyone who approaches God in organized religion is actually antichrist."

Exactly, which is why you likely now see my problem with what ElderChild is implying.

"You figure all those church people everywhere are damned? Or am I missing your point?"

It certainly SEEMS that he's saying that.

ElderChild said...

"Are we to understand that religion itself, everything beyond the love-in-action God has poured into our hearts but the Holy Spirit, is not only of the mortal flesh, but also is anti-Jesus-and-Jesus'-Kingdom?"

Simply 'jesus' is the name pagan catholicsim gave to one-head of their three headed pagan god less than 500 years ago, which was some 1500 years after The Only True GOD, Father(Creator) of ALL, raised The Messiah from among the dead.......

If there be any "religion" yet abiding in me it can be stated as;

"Father, not my will, But THY Will Be Done".......

And so it is that as a child i cry out;

Father Help! and HE does.......

As for The Kingom?

The Messiah delivered up The Kingdom unto Our Father long, long ago.......

Peace, is spite of the dis-ease(confusion) that is of this wicked world and it's systems of religion, for "the WHOLE world is under the control of the evil one" indeed and Truth.......

ElderChild said...

"But I also find it a ghastly thing to suggest that anyone who approaches God in organized religion is actually antichrist.

You figure all those church people everywhere are damned? Or am I missing your point?"

"religion" is anti-Messiah.......

As for individuals, Our Father HE knows HIS Children, HE will order the steps of HIS Children yet it seems most who finally see "The Light" would take heed unto The Call of The Only True GOD to "Come Out of her, MY people".......

ElderChild said...

"It is the pagan catholic/christian systems of religion and their "imag"ined 'jesus' who are impure and defiled because they were "imag"ined by the likes of calvin, luther, simons, and a multitude of other catholic pagan priests......."

I hate to break this to you, but Calvin was never a priest in the Catholic church. He was a lawyer (and I realize that some may think that is even worse).
-------
Forgive me, my memory from the many years past failed me. Calvin was a catholic lawyer at one time, as was his father, and he was brought up to be "a good catholic" by his mother.

Scribes and pharisee's are one in the same....... So it is that the pagan catholic and christian systems of religion but carry on their legacy as they deny The Messiah, and either worship their three-headed god or they make their "imag"ined 'jesus' their only god and father ;-(
-------
Secondly, all Calvin did was write down what he thought the Bible said. Isn't that what YOU are doing? Why is his interpretation "imagined" while yours is supposedly "pure?"

Calvin served the three headed pagan catholic and christian god one head of which was given the "imag"ined name of 'jesus'.
-------
"So you conclude that because I say James 1:27 isn't an exhaustive statement that I'm therefore a pagan?"

You are a pagan because you serve the pagan catholic and christian three headed god ;-(
-------
"If you can't reason, think or read any better than that, why in the world do you think you're interpreting the Bible correctly (you aren't)."

You wrote the above to your own self!

Hopefully one day you will "see" The Light.......
-------

Garry said...

Joe, I'm not sure, but I believe it is time to pull the plug on this one.
It is going contrary to the scripture that instructs us "not to be caught up in fruitless discussion" Sorry I don't have the chapter and verse, it is in one of Paul's letters to Timothy.

ElderChild said...

"It is going contrary to the scripture that instructs us "not to be caught up in fruitless discussion" Sorry I don't have the chapter and verse, it is in one of Paul's letters to Timothy."

1 Tim 1:5-7 or so.......

Those particular verses were actually intended to refute those who were seeking to teach the law.

However, i also believe that any more contention with a presbyter would be fruitless.

The Truth can not be arrived at in debate or discussion, The Truth must be received via experience or revelation, not simply in the reading of "colored marks written on a dead tree".

That which is of The Truth can be published, yet beware the religious dogma of the publisher, and that is especially true concerning the endless stream of "biblical" translations.

The Faithful are to "share that which they have seen(experienced) and heard(received) so that they might have fellowship, one with the other(s)".

Forgive me, for i realize that some of what i have published here is in fact interpretive and yet if i err, i know and believe that Our Father, HE will reveal such to me and have Mercy upon me, for although i may err, HE is yet Faithful.

Father Help! and HE does.......

Joe B said...

I deleted my last comment. Some of you can read in the feeds or e-mail, that's okay. But I do not want my comment can right a discussion that's gone this wrong.

There are all kinds among us. God sorts it out in the end! His mercy endures forever.

Redacticus said...

Remind the people to be subject to rulers and authorities, to be obedient, to be ready to do whatever is good, to slander no one, to be peaceable and considerate, and to show true humility toward all men.
At one time we too were foolish, disobedient, deceived and enslaved by all kinds of passions and pleasures. We lived in malice and envy, being hated and hating one another. But when the kindness and love of God our Savior appeared, he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that, having been justified by his grace, we might become heirs having the hope of eternal life. This is a trustworthy saying. And I want you to stress these things, so that those who have trusted in God may be careful to devote themselves to doing what is good. These things are excellent and profitable for everyone.
But avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and arguments and quarrels about the law, because these are unprofitable and useless. Warn a divisive person once, and then warn him a second time. After that, have nothing to do with him. You may be sure that such a man is warped and sinful; he is self-condemned. (Titus 3:1-11)

You have been Redacticated! This thread is now CLOSED, never to be reopened. Stick around for mud-wrestling at 10:00 Eastern Time. A brand new thread coming up Sunday at 10:00pm.