Wednesday, June 9, 2010
Wild-Eyed Radicals?
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All the stuff he said in that video... It excites me and depresses me at the same time.
Because I think I'd like to BE like I TALK, but talking is so much easier!
I agree Scott! Jesus is so much a part of our "culture" around here it makes it difficult, too. It's easy to say, "Just follow Jesus, then!" but much harder to do it.
I showed this and talked to my body about some of this and then the next week I showed this one and talked about it, too. Small crowds though - even for a small church:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LA_uwWPE6lQ
And thanks Matt, for recommending the great vid!
Here is href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LA_uwWPE6lQ">Matt's link, the easy way. It is well worth it!
Joe B - I emailed you back last week I think, but not sure if you got it...
"What if they were? What would that look like?"
I suppose it would look like Jesus and like the Apostles and like the early followers. A bunch of people loving each other, taking care of each other, strengthening each other, sharing communion among each other and spreading the word every chance they got.
In other words, it wouldn't look like what we call church today.
I think there are followers around here even that look like some of those early followers. But it probably isn't seen or doesn't look like the "Face" of church we see in the forefront.
I was reading Acts and often wonder why we think so highly of the early church. I think sometimes they might have said stuff like, "I can't wait till 2000 years from now when people like Ananias and Saphira who lie about money are no longer a part of all this!"
Seriously... I bet if you look at historical sermons or writings on the church, every generation says something like, "The real church shouldn't look like what we call church today."
Look at the 7 churches Jesus spoke to in Revelations! They are some of the first "churches."
I am trying to wrestle, not with what the church isn't that it should be, b/c it seems that is always an aspect of "church." None of us in it have seen Jesus face to face yet. But I'm trying to get myself to pray and wrestle with "what does my body, and my role in it, have to do with loving and obeying Jesus?" or "what does it mean for me to follow Jesus" and I think that does lead me back to the gathering and going on mission with the body, just not always sure how.
I hesitate to comment much, just yet, because I haven't seen the video yet (maybe tonight. . .)
But Matt, I think you're onto something - as long as 'sinners' (like me) is all that Jesus has available to Him for building His church, it will always fall short of what it 'should be'.
And yet, we can strive for faithfulness, and greater obedience, and greater love of the brethren, and pray for guidance from the Holy Spirit, and try to cooperate when God is beating us into a shape that's closer to how He made us to be. . .
And if we can do that all that together. . . well, then we're heading in the right direction. . .
Good video clip.
But of course, it begs us to take it a good deal more seriously than 'a good video clip'. If his point is to actually take the gospel seriously at the level where we LIVE, as opposed to merely how we think, it's a good deal more challenging than just a good video. . .
I've spent my life trying (with, you can be sure, varying degrees of success) to do just that - to LIVE the Christian life as radically as I can manage. 'Cuz, True as it may be, if it only stays between my ears, I have been radically unfaithful to it (and may God have mercy on me). . .
"Christianity has not been tried and found wanting. It has been found difficult; and left untried." -- GK Chesterton
I think the point that Chen is getting to or will get to is the fundamental question of; “if you read the Bible and based solely on that, then decide to build a community of followers would it look like “the church” we have today?
The answer to that, if people are honest enough to do it, is a resounding no. I hear people constantly talking about the primitive church but when I listen to them they are just talking about doing the same old stuff, just in someone's home or perhaps a tent on a hill somewhere. It is much easier to change locations that it is too change people or so folks convince themselves.
The way of the church has superseded the message and in many cases replaced it. Christianity has become a weekend activity of a couple of hours and our responsibilities as Christians have been taken over by paid staff and other professionals so we can remain in our little solo capsules without the need to invest anything other than show up, face forward and be entertained.
Now is that entirely bad? No, but when church leadership fails to teach and demand the rest of the package, then yes they are to blame in no small measure since they more than others know better. But once you compromise the truth so you don't offend people, then the real purpose is lost.
"I hear people constantly talking about the primitive church but when I listen to them they are just talking about doing the same old stuff, just in someone's home or perhaps a tent on a hill somewhere."
What ideas or images are you thinking of when you say the "same old stuff" they are talking about doing? I get an image of what I call "churchy" things when you say that, but that doesn't mean I know what you're talking about specifically.
"when church leadership fails to teach and demand the rest of the package"
What does it mean to demand rest of the package? I think I'd be very hesitant to be close to a leader who "demanded" anything. Yet, I think I know what you mean - to put forth the rest of Jesus statements of "believe and follow me." But how does a leader in this culture go about "demanding" that?
Well...I think it begins with teaching what Jesus taught. And teaching the fact that Jesus commands us to do the same things, AND promises that his same power will enable us.
Is this the basic message of church-as-we-know-it?
Those who follow Jesus in that Way are the church. Pretty simple.
But then again...
Sorry, I gotta forward this comment about this radical Jesus-following vid post that I got on Facebook.
Comment is from our occasional visitor "Julie, Joe B's non-Christian, God-loving friend."
Quote:
"I like this A LOT! :)"
Draw your own conclusions, friends.
There is not a church within 100 miles I know of that is not trying to teach what Jesus says, do what Jesus says, and live like Jesus says.
hmmm...makes me think...
I know this sounds weird for me to say, but I hesitate to get drawn into too big a discussion about "how to do church" as a result of this video. What Chan is saying, what I hear, is that we should be walking as Jesus walked, and doing as Jesus did. Not just memorizing, discussing, and saying things "in our hearts."
Are some local churches better (and worse) than others at how they teach and model this? Yes. Of course. Some are probably failing miserably, and some are probably holding up admirably. I will admit that that "new middle road" does hit uncomfortably close to home, for both me and what I've seen in many churches.
I agree with what you are saying Scott, so maybe it's better I just stay out of the conversation.
See, for me, it is precisely what to "do" at some point. I am a pastor, I am paid (even if paid minimally) so when posts here say things like:
"when church leadership fails to teach and demand the rest of the package, then yes they are to blame in no small measure since they more than others know better."
and
"Christians have been taken over by paid staff and other professionals so we can remain in our little solo capsules"
...then I have to take the conversation in personally and digest it differently - I use it as a mirror. It comes out in dialogue from my personal questions of "what about me, and my leadership and who I am being, and ultimately, what I am "doing" or as a leader suggesting be done in this church with these resources?"
Hence my question. What does it look like for a leader to demand a group with him to be more than just "knowing" about Jesus? I don't know many pastors, but I'd say all of them that I do know would take offense if that comment was directed at them/us. When we talk priavetely, we are all wrestling with that to a degree and from different perspectives. Only in moments of cynicism, or exhaustion with the "sheep" they are trying to lead do they "fail" in that.
Certainly no offense to pastors is intended here (and I think RMW did not intend it so either)...here's my personal take on this:
I have long believed that "pastors" generally represent a very high-grade sample of Christian devotion. BUT! I also tend to think they labor under an ill-fitted yoke, which leads to the exhaustion Matt mentioned, and to a whole raft of other unpleasantness. That yoke, I think, is the institutional overhead that men create "whenever two or more are gathered" (;-)). Institutions and constitutions and expectations. By encumbering the leaders this way, I think, the result is an iteration of Christ's Church that functions at about 1% efficiency. The human institution (the old wineskin?), I think, conspires to force a pastor to lead from the rear (as an administrator) rather than from the front (as an example to the flock.)
Now, right now I want to stand up and vouch for Matt: He heroically defies all these perverse expectations in the most astonishing ways---I kid you not. Matt is THE example of dynamic pastoral ministry in my experience. If I had the grit to be a pastor, I would imitate him.
But as many of you know, I intentionally left institutional church ministry 21 years ago for these very reasons. Church ministry, then and now, has no place for my particular gifts. Conclude what you will.
It is kind of ironic that RMW's lament comes from a guy whose gifting is 90% administration. Isn't that odd? Without criticizing anybody, truly, I say this. Strangely, there is no place for RMW's gift in the institutional church either. Because the "administrative chairs" are all filled with pastor types with no particular administrative gifts. And, why are they sitting in those chairs? Because the institutional rules force them to languish and flounder there mainly, and to minister according to their actual gifts in their spare time.
That's why I quit. Happily, and with no grudge or remorse.
Why is it called the unChurch? Ahhhh, let's see...because it ain't a church. Those who follow Jesus, we...are...The...Church.
And those who are led by the spirit of God are the sons of God.
And yeah, I like going to church. I do it all the time.
Just know I was not offended at all. I was just trying to give context of where my questions come from.
I gotta run help somebody move, so may not get to all my thoughts clearly, but...
Thnx for your kind words Joe, but I am always wrestling with it all and not as convinced as you are that I'm able to be "in this church stuff" and still "be the church" though I keep it forefront, and I keep it forefront in the body as a teacher/pastor. The whole Jesus always was angry with and judging and turning over tables in the leadership is not lost on me.
The administrative thing is so true.
I do think that it can all be changed though, from what Joe is describing (church stuff to actually being in the body of christ) or I wouldn't be trying it. And, admittedly, I tried to leave, but I would say I'm pretty convinced God led me here and now... for now anyways. Did you know the first time "ekklesia" (I think it's ekklesia) we translate as church is used in Acts is in the context of discipline in Acts? I saw that this week and found that interesting...but I digress... (i'd have to find it again...can't remember where, but thinking after ananias/saphira thing).
Like the dialogue here, b/c it keeps me thinking about these things. LIke the local dialogue of it. I could probably sit and talk for hours on this, philosophically, but then another set of days and hours personally, as I'd confess my struggles, the choices in front of me (us - my wife and I) daily in these things, and what in teh world it means.
Following Jesus is here doing this for now for me...
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